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Updates from lonbluster RSS

  • 1:20 pm on July 27, 2009 | 3 | Permalink Reply
    Tags: new york, ny salsa congress, nyc

    Salseros my friends!!!

    I would love to let you know I will fly to NY from Belgium (EU) to attend my first NYc Salsa Congress that will be held from the 3 to the 6 of September.
    http://www.nycsalsacongress.com

    Anyone in this board will be there?

    I am gonna thrive among all those good dancers and screaming salsa bands playing live everynight!! :-)

    Being first time in the city I’d love to visit it extensively for few days more after, but expecially I wanna go to the typical Salsa club in there everysinglef…..gnight!

    Some place in particular guys?

     

  • 8:55 am on May 24, 2009 | 0 | Permalink Reply
    Tags: Beats matrix,

    I have found out a better matrix to be on perfect timing when you dance sincopathed, On2 salsa.
    It is a mix of the clave and the tumbao of the conga with accent on the downbeats. With this matrix I always know more precisely WHEN I have to place the following step or steps, giving therefore more freedom to interpret the music or to break out of the schemes for shining a little bit or whatever.

    All that one should do is to listen for instruments playing on the following beats:

    2-3-5-6-6½-8-8½

    which(swapping 2 measures) can also be put as:
    1-2-2½-4-4½-6-7

    There is a stress/accent on the 3 and the 5(1 and 7),the two downbeats in the clave.

    Even though the two correspond to the type of clave being played, IT can change often direction during a song, and may be interpreted both as 2/3 or 3/2 and this produce a different attitude and feeling for the song.
    This is due to the fact that the accents on the downbeat in the first case are in the middle of the pattern and in the second case on the 2 extremes.
    Also in the first case the 1 is purposefully obmitted, maybe because it already has a strong impact in the song, but if we prefer we can revert to the second case to give a different interpretation to the song, even if the music is suggesting more one of the two models.

    Does it mean something to you?

    In this file matrix_3_2 you can hear the pattern without having to think about it, but the concept is NOT to search for this pattern in salsa songs, but instead to follow the instruments that most often match these beats in the music.

     

  • 1:46 am on April 23, 2009 | 8 | Permalink Reply

    I would like to attend a Salsa congress…what’s better?
    Miami
    NY
    San Francisco
    Puerto Rico

    I am attracted by the San Francisco’s one..

     

    • mafeyjoo 7:58 am on April 23, 2009Permalink | Reply

      If you want the original, PR, Dancing with Gran Combo in your ear . . . .ahhh .. . beautiful

      NY is a great one also. Never heard much about San fran though

    • Wil 11:41 am on April 23, 2009Permalink | Reply

      NEW YORK, NEW YORK the city so nice they name it twice!….If you want to be dancing all weekend long NYC is the place

    • Anthony Persaud

      Anthony Persaud 12:41 pm on April 23, 2009Permalink | Reply

      It depends your dance style, the dancers that attend (instructors), the specific salsa scene culture (attitudes) and who’s hosting the congresses. (Ex, lately I have heard bad reviews about ATP Congresses).

      As for the San Francisco congress, I think it is great and I have no doubt you would have fun there.

      • Ivonne 6:10 pm on April 27, 2009Permalink | Reply

        What do you mean by ATP?

      • lonbluster 2:53 am on April 29, 2009Permalink | Reply

        yes, right what’s ATP?

    • Don Vaillancourt 3:25 am on April 29, 2009Permalink | Reply

      ATP = Albert Torres Productions

      Would answer the question as to why the world salsa championship was cancelled.

      • Anthony Persaud

        Anthony Persaud 12:48 pm on April 29, 2009Permalink | Reply

        Thanks. I forget to not use acronyms :-) . By the way, I would recommend the San Diego Salsa Congress – so you can visit us! :-)

    • Ivonne 8:38 am on April 30, 2009Permalink | Reply

      Thanks for clarifying, still, never heard of it but I’ll google it LOL.

      Anthony, Where can I get a tee with the addicted 2 salsa logo???

  • 5:07 pm on April 13, 2009 | 3 | Permalink Reply
    Tags: percussions

    http://social.addicted2salsa.com/2009/04/13/id-like-to-share-a-simple-but-rich/salsa_drum/

    I’d like to share this “simple but rich” salsa composition of percussion made with RhythmRascal, very useful for whoever interested in the various instruments in Salsa and their role in a song.

    RhythmRascal will need to be installed in order to appreciate the job:

    http://www.rhythmrascal.com/

     
    • Anthony Persaud

      Anthony Persaud 10:09 pm on April 13, 2009Permalink | Reply

      Booo… it doesn’t run on a Mac. I guess I’ll stick to Garageband. :-(

    • jovi 6:06 am on April 14, 2009Permalink | Reply

      8beats only?
      which buttons do i have to press for more???

      • lonbluster 9:09 am on April 14, 2009Permalink | Reply

        Well…I am sorry if it’s too simple…for me 8 beats in a loop are enough…but you can clone the pattern and apport variations on your salsa taste!!

  • 3:22 am on March 30, 2009 | 0 | Permalink Reply
    Tags: "salsa rock"

    Hi,
    I am looking for Rock salsa covers…can you help to find ‘em?
    I have found a torrent with Beatles, and I know there is something with Prince, and Eagles around…

    Where to search?

    http://isohunt.com/torrent_details/46084388/beatles+meet+latin?tab=summary

     

  • 4:13 pm on March 15, 2009 | 2 | Permalink Reply
    Tags: timing exercizes

    Timing exercizes for dancing properly on2 NY mambo style:

    1a)- basic steps clapping hands on the beat 1; and 5 additionally (2 and 6 are answer steps to the beats 1 and 5). Keep an eye on your body weight and its baricentrum seeing what weight movements feel better (the steps 2 and 6 need precision and enphasis, the others don’t necessarily have to be matched exactly).
    1b)- clap hands on 12 and 56, having heard the conga beats 4&, 8&

    2a)- basic steps clapping the hands on the clave beats
    2b)- step on the clave beats, which are five, and on the 1 or 5 for the sixth step

    3)- basic steps clapping hands on the conga 4&-6 and 8&-2; if the song is slow 4&5-6 and 8&1-2 can be done (“&” is half beat)

    - clap hands on all the beats or any combination you like :-)

    - practise and love chacha :-)

    Practise these for few days with your salsa music on and you won’t have to count ever more…all the instruments will simply come to help you keeping the timing when you feel you are missing it.

    :-) nice eh?

     
    • Marco

      Marco 9:06 pm on March 16, 2009Permalink | Reply

      After about 4 months of a 20 minute drive to and from work, while listening to nothing but salsa. It’s downright hard not to hear the hit on the two beat of most salsa songs. If it isn’t a hit (clave, cowbell, or conga) then there’s usually a bass or guitar (cuatro) note to replace it.

      I will try your clapping hands deal. Where did you learn it?

      And now I’m off to google up the word baricentrum (sounds like a multi-vitamim!)

    • lonbluster 5:18 am on March 17, 2009Permalink | Reply

      Hi Marco

      Baricentro in Italian means “center of gravity”, as translated by the dictionary.
      Each exercize will setup your mind and body in to using a slightly different center of gravity.

      I actually do this execizes with a clave recently, instead of clapping hands. The clave sounds better :-)

  • 5:03 pm on February 19, 2009 | 38 | Permalink Reply
    Tags: ,

    Timing…AGAIN!

    Keeping comparing the styles on1 and on2 I noticed that Eddie Torres on his timing video talks about staying on time and on beat.
    So i wonder, what is this beat, actually?

    ? Is it correct to say that:
    -the beat on1 starts with 1 and finishes with 4 or start on 5 and finishes 8
    while
    -the beat on2 starts and finishes with 2 and with 6, so there is a beat going from 2 to 6 and a beat going from 6 to 2
    ?

    I notice that people when learning On2 consider a beat according on the intervals they learn to count…123-567 or 234-678.

    How is the concept of beat applied in Chacha, then?

    Personally I am pratically confident with how I can keep both timing and beat…and I can notice that my upper body is more beat oriented, while my feet have to keep going on time.
    Notwithstanding with the correct concept of beat, instead, many people don’t move their upper body and baricentrum correctly, and therefore TEND to go out of time as well!!

    Nice weekend to everybody!! :-)

     

    • jhonsky 1:44 pm on February 20, 2009Permalink | Reply

      Im not sure if I understand correctly your questions/comments, but here is my take on it.

      I think technically the beat or “the rhythm” has no directions, forward or backward.

      Recently, Anthony showed that the conga plays on 8-8.5-2 and 4-4.5-6 throughout the music.
      Having learned from Tito Puente, Eddie Torres actually steps on TIME with the conga (open and slap), which actually falls on the BEAT 8-8.5 and 2, instead of 1 and 2.
      (Vice versa on the 4-4.5 and 6, instead of 5 and 6).

      I read it somewhere that Eddie Torres didnt even put the actual counting system (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) until some ballroom dancer asked him too. Prior to that, I believe he learned it all by simply listening to the music.

      On1 dancers step and break exactly on the BEAT and TIME 1 of the music.

      For Cha-Cha, Anthony went over the idea that it can only be danced on2 in order to step correctly on the instrumental rhythms. (Check out previous podcasts on “The magic of real Cha-Cha”)

    • tommrod 11:45 pm on February 21, 2009Permalink | Reply

      mmmmmy brain hurts…

      :(

      i just don’t get it….

    • lonbluster 9:07 am on February 22, 2009Permalink | Reply

      :-(

    • jovi 5:20 am on February 23, 2009Permalink | Reply

      hey bud, why the long face? :)

      @0:56 “Basic TIMEstap is executed over 2 measures”
      @0:50 “One measure is from here to center”(begin to middle)
      @1:00 “4 beats per measure”
      @2:08 “The man break back on the 2nd beat with the right foot”(listen him counting)

      as far as i understand:
      12345678 12345678 beat
      1 2 time

      12345678
      123 567 i would count while dancing on 1
      234 678 he counts while danced on 2

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DimToE_w4jk

      correct me if i am wrong

      • jovi 5:23 am on February 23, 2009Permalink | Reply

        my nice formatings :(
        so here again

        as far as i understand:
        12345678×12345678 beat
        1xxxxxxxx2xxxxxxx time

        12345678
        123x567x i would count while dancing on 1
        x234x678 he counts while danced on 2

    • tommrod 11:14 pm on February 23, 2009Permalink | Reply

      can we have some musicologist to kind of settle this thing?

      • lonbluster 7:13 am on February 24, 2009Permalink | Reply

        Thanks Tommrod for your concern. :-)

        Just to put it in another point of view: if, while dancing on2, I count 123-567, like Eddie Torres does, I notice I can only dance slow songs with ease, while, if I want dance on2 with fast songs I’d much better want to count 234-678.
        The difference on counting, even if the break is always on2 and on6, allows my body baricentrum to move differently.
        Of course, I got the rithm, I won’t count anymore, but just listen to the instruments, conga, clave, etc.
        Anyway every sometimes I have to count in order to focus better, in order to settle the timing(and the beat?) in my body.

        My point of view here is both that of a leader and a teacher, provided that if I can teach my follower on the proper timing, in some way I would get a better average dance!!

    • IncaPie 7:13 am on February 24, 2009Permalink | Reply

      I am not sure where some of the commenters have gotten there ideas about counting 234 on2.

      In both styles, on1 and on2, you count the same 123 pause 567 pause. That is two measures of music (notice that for a musician like the conguero, the music would actually be counted to 4 twice, not to 8, since it is in 4/4 timing; we count to 8 as dancers because our basic step requires two measures of music to complete the footwork phrase. So we need different numbers 1-4 for going backwards, 5-8 for going forward, for example.)

      The difference is not in what numbers you count or step on, nor in what foot you use for that count. The difference is where you place your feet at each count.

      In on1 style, the lead breaks forward with the left foot on the first beat of music (the 1). A break is when you separate your feet from a together/neutral position. Then the lead steps in place on 2 with the right foot, and finally replaces the left foot to neutral position on 3. PAUSE. Now the lead breaks back with the right on 5, in place with left on 6, and replaces the right foot to neutral on 7. Pause.

      In (NYC) on2 style, the lead steps in place or slightly back on the left foot on the (count) 1. They break back on the 2 with the right foot. They step in place on 3 with the left. Over the count of 4, which is a pause in on1 style, the lead takes an “air step” bringing their right foot from the back break position to slightly forward of the left foot, not shifting their weight onto it until count 5. Then the lead breaks forward on 6 with the left foot, and in place on 7 on the right foot. There is another “air step” over count 8 with the left foot, which is brought backward and only stepped down on the 1. Repeat. These airsteps and the overall lack of a neutral position are what give on2 style its grace and smoothness.

      In actual ballroom mambo, you do step on 234, 678. But not in salsa.

      I hope that clears some of this up. I have taken on2 lessons from multiple Eddie Torres dancers, including Melissa Rosado who is his regular dance partner. I just met with her this past weekend.

      Keep the discussion going if there are any more questions.

      • lonbluster 7:24 am on February 24, 2009Permalink | Reply

        Hi IncaPie, we were writing in the same moment…but I posted first, I guess…just take a look at the answer to Tommrod.
        Can you easily dance On2 and stay on time when you count 123-567 on FAST songs?

        You say:
        ”
        we count to 8 as dancers because our basic step requires two measures of music to complete the footwork phrase. So we need different numbers 1-4 for going backwards, 5-8 for going forward, for example.)
        ”

        I would “also” say we count up to 8 because the clave pattern is lasting 2 measures.

    • IncaPie 7:17 am on February 24, 2009Permalink | Reply

      I just want to clarify my last comment where I said both styles count a pause, but then said that on2 dancers don’t take a pause. That is right, but I mean that in counting, neither count the 4 or 8 because there are no steps on those counts. But on2, the dancers do not actually pause on those counts, they are moving their foot from one position to another without shifting the weight until the next count with a “step” (5 or 1). This is the “air step” I was referring to.

    • jovi 8:07 am on February 24, 2009Permalink | Reply

      some music theory:

      tick by a metronome is a beat. of course there is not allways a metronome, so people count the beats(1&2&3&4&) in equial temporal distance in their minds.

      usually in salsa there is a 4/4 beat but it is counted like eighth note
      http://www.freedrumlessons.com/drum-lessons/eighth-notes.php
      clave example
      http://www.freedrumlessons.com/drum-lessons/son-clave-beats.php

      all the musicians counts the same beats(shared metronome, clave is the reference) so they play at the same speed and this is also good for the rhytmic instrument notation(several rhytmic instruments on a single peace of paper, more precise on same music-notation row).

      according to music theory there is no 2-5, 6-1 on2 and 1-4, 5-8 on1 partitioning at the same time for a song.
      vertical lines (in standard music notation) devide the beat partitionings(+ x/y at the beginning of the song or row).

      why 4/4 and not 3/3 or 3/4 or 100000/100000 beats? theoretically every possibility would work, but it should make musicians live easy. And 4/4 is easy for salsa because rhytmic instruments plays usually on beats and exactly in the midle of two beats and after 4 beats there is a kind of repetition of the pattern. (many dancers also don’t differentiate on1 and on5, (on2 and on6 as well)).

      if you buy ballroom music then there is often a “? bpm” anotation which means “beats per minute”. this tells you how much clock-time you have to wait from one beat to the next one.(how fast you have to dance)

      so once beat started, for the musician means: beat = time.
      (remember clock-time is not given by nature, it is defined and standartisized by human)

      ——-
      “beat”, “time” are just words, often people use same word for different concepts or vice versa.
      this discusion confuses me. what exactly do you mean by beat and time and what are you counting(steps, beats,…)?

      • lonbluster 11:01 am on February 24, 2009Permalink | Reply

        Hi jovi
        Thanks for the extensive follow ups…

        I have quite a good music knowledge, anyway, having played guitar for long, even if I am not confortable with the English terminology for it.
        Actually not in the video above, but I have heard somewhere else a good teaching concept from Eddie Torres saying “Stay on time and stay on beat”, so that for time he’s meaning the counting, while for beat I think he means referring the conga tumbao to step precisely on 2 and 6.
        This “precisely” for me has the meaning of moving appropriately the upper body (baricentrum), not only the feet. So I see this phantomatic “BEAT” as a different concept both from measure and counting. Then if you read the beginning of my first post you see what I mean.

        Thanks again

        Have a great dancing time!

    • IncaPie 9:00 am on February 24, 2009Permalink | Reply

      @lonbluster,

      Thanks for the heads up. I think you are absolutely right about counting to 8 because the clave’s phrase takes up 2 measures. That is a great point. A good listener will notice that the phrasing of most salsa melody is also 2 measures (piano and vocals). That is, the pattern of the lyrics/vocals and the piano often repeat every 2 measures, or 8 counts (quarter notes). [This is a simplified analysis. Please don't take this to refer to every situation.]

      In regards to dancing on 234 to keep up with faster songs, I have not had this problem. I don’t know how commonplace that issue is, honestly. I would like to hear from others their experiences with that. I make sure to take close, small steps except in certain styling cases (like mambo-jazz, if you are familiar) and shift my weight on the beat. There are songs that wear me out faster, sure, like “aguanile” and “salsa y sabor” but I focus on staying with the original 123, 567 step/counts.

    • IncaPie 6:38 pm on February 24, 2009Permalink | Reply

      @ lonbluster,

      I finally got home from work today and tried out the basic to the different scenarios presented in this thread. I think I have your answer.

      As I mentioned in my first post, where I described the difference in the basic step for on1 and NYC on2 styles, the “pause” (4 or 8) occurs while the feet are still separated from the break step in on2 style. In on1, the pause occurs while the feet are together in neutral position (i.e. the break has been closed/replaced). You said:
      “if I want dance on2 with fast songs I’d much better want to count 234-678.”
      and,
      “Can you easily dance On2 and stay on time when you count 123-567 on FAST songs?”

      If you are dancing/stepping on 234,678, your pause will have to be on the 5 and the 1. Then, if you are breaking on the 2 and the 6, you will be doing the exact footwork as on1, just a beat late!!! This is the fundamental difference in the movement of on2…the pause occurs while the feet are still separated (on 4 and 8), and the break step isn’t replaced until after the pause. So you are doing a technical on1 one beat too late by breaking on the 2. That is to say, your body is physically doing the same motion as an on1 dancer, but not on the same beats. In fact, you could count whatever numbers you wanted and it wouldn’t make a difference–your pattern is based on the on1 style. Another way of putting it: you are dancing the ballroom (on2) mambo, but not on2 salsa.

      You need to find some instruction for the on2 footwork, and practice this slowly. You will come to find that it is distinct from the on1 pattern of:
      break-step-replace-pause (& repeat) as on2 is:
      (step-) break-step-pause-”replace”-break-step-pause……….

      I could say it a million different ways, but it’s all the same. You probably just have a bad habit of returning to your on1 motions, just trying to stay breaking on the 2 and 6. It is commonplace and I have suffered this while trying go back and forth between styles. You just have to train your body to the different motions/feels of the styles in order to dance them and appreciate their distinctiveness.

      Hope that solves at least some of the mystery.

      • lonbluster 5:35 am on February 25, 2009Permalink | Reply

        I don’t really see the difference of counting 234678 as opposed to 123567, except that with the first you are more agile on fast songs and the second you are more stable with slower song.
        I know the 234 feels more like dancing on 1, but still, this is the main reason of my post!
        On1 you see the measure(?BEAT? :-) ) starting on 1 and 5 and finishing on 4 adn 8.
        On2 you see it starting and finishing on 2 and 6, AND NOT as if starting on 2(6) and finishing on 5(1).

        I am now wondering if some mambo on2 dancer felt a difference when they moved to NY salsa style.
        Anyone?

      • tommrod 4:28 pm on February 26, 2009Permalink | Reply

        the 234 678 footwork is just a different way of dancing on 2 closer to the cuban style (if in fact it isn’t the very same)

        • lonbluster 4:34 pm on February 26, 2009Permalink | Reply

          I have always danced Cuban Style on the 1, but I know NY style takes some origins from the Cuban Rumba movements

    • lonbluster 5:39 am on February 25, 2009Permalink | Reply

      Anyway…thanks everybody…I guess I got the point.
      I don’t want further deeps on this…this is becoming far too much technical, and maybe stupid ;-)

      Keeping dancing will prove everything!

      Enjoy :-)

    • me 10:55 am on February 25, 2009Permalink | Reply

      as an on2 dancer, i know exactly what incapie is saying. It is getting all confusing, but what incapie is saying makes perfect sense (to me anyway). we count 123-567 just like anyone else, but different steps are taken on these beats. i’ve taken classes in 4 NYC schools, and it’s all the same. I’ve never danced 234-678. It sounds confusing to dance like that. (then again, I never tried it)
      I think incapie explained it best, you just have to know which step is taken on which beat in both styles. from there you will find -and feel- the difference of the styles.

      • lonbluster 11:16 am on February 25, 2009Permalink | Reply

        I wanted to address the answer below to you, but I didn’t in fact.

    • lonbluster 11:11 am on February 25, 2009Permalink | Reply

      I think the only real reference are the clave and the conga tumbao…if, and only if, you got the timing in that way, just try shifting the count and come back and tell me after having tried a couple of fast songs and a couple of slow songs
      :-)
      Enjoy

      • jovi 12:55 pm on February 25, 2009Permalink | Reply

        just a question, don’t turn angry. i should pick a fast song and start dancing on2. While dancing i count steps by words 123-567 loud in English. After that i do everything the same(continue dancing on2) but replace just words 123-567 by words 234-678. … same with slow song … and post the difference?

        • lonbluster 7:19 pm on February 25, 2009Permalink | Reply

          Hi Jovi,
          Growl!!!
          No, the 2(6) stays 2 breaking forward or backward, otherwise it wouldn’t make sense.
          What you will realize counting 234 on fast songs is that the step that is usually 5 is more a 4 instead.
          Of course if you do the 234 counting with slow songs instead, the 5 will be a full pause, like in mambo On2 I guess.

      • me 3:38 pm on February 25, 2009Permalink | Reply

        thats what I listen for when trying to understand a song. I first find the 2 (the first conga slap), and then listen for the clave rhythm. I’ve never tried changing the count though.

        I kinda know what you mean by having a tougher time dancing on2 to a faster song, but that problem has faded away for me a bit. I used to have some trouble dancing on2 to a faster song, but not so much anymore. i guess it just comes with practice because i’ve kinda rooted out on1 dancing. (I dont exclude it at all, i just dance on2 by preference, to any salsa song, no matter the tempo) Perhaps its just adjusment? I do remember having that feeling. It is different for everyone, i can only speak from my own experience.

        I wish i could help more, but for me, it just doesnt feel right to change the counts. The basic on2 step is danced on 123-567, just like on1.

        • lonbluster 7:26 pm on February 25, 2009Permalink | Reply

          Hi Me,

          Yes, you got my point, it is a question of practise…but in my case I don’t want to miss good On1 dancing girls, so, I am doing both On2 and On1.

          In the end what I prefer more is Not Counting At All!!! and NY style allow this to happen…but I guess you need to know exactly why!

          :-)

    • me 8:51 am on February 26, 2009Permalink | Reply

      Yes, same here. I started on2 because I wanted to be able to dance with anyone as well. I came across an interesting interview with Magna Gopal. She has a nice analogy for explaining what is different between on1 and on2 – how on2 counting trains your ear to hear all of the instruments.

      It can be found at http://www.salsaon2.com/. The video is at the bottom of the page (for now, anyway) and click on the “understanding the Music” tab of the video.

      But eventually, after training yourself to count to the music on2, it becomes a part of you. Just like anything else, it just takes practice. (it wss very frustrating at first though – relearning everything)

    • dahvee 11:04 pm on February 26, 2009Permalink | Reply

      FYI – Dancing x234 x678 was the commmon NY on2 method of dancing back in Palladium days (back in the 50-60′s). According to NY dancer Nydia Ocasio it’s actually the son montuno footwork.

      This style of footwork is still used by ballroom mambo dancers.

      If you find it easier to dance x234 it maybe because faster songs tend to be more percussive. In other words the slap of the tumbao becomes more pronounced than the melodic components of the song.

      • lonbluster 2:31 am on February 27, 2009Permalink | Reply

        Yes indeed my 234 teacher calls it “Montuno”, indeed. :-)

        Do you see any difference, than, with the NY style by Eddie Torres, 123x567x?
        I mean the main concept is to step according the conga tumbao, then the counting is just a secondary aspect…
        I mean you can still count x234x678 on slow songs, even if the 4 and 8 don’t actually match the feet touching the ground.

    • IncaPie 6:56 am on February 27, 2009Permalink | Reply

      lonbluster,

      Why do you seem to be stuck on this fast-vs.-slow tempo theme? You should be able to dance your style (whatever it is) to any salsa song, regardless of tempo. Tempo only dictates how much time is between each step. So if you know your steps well enough, you should be able to do them quickly if the song calls for it. Slower music allows (or forces?) you to do more body styling, but that is the only difference I can think of.

      If you are new to on2, unless you are being taught the Montuno/ballroom mambo style, I am still putting my money on you being more inclined to the on1 style, but you are calling it on2 if that’s what the ladies require. It seems your body is only trained in on1 right now, but you are at least aware enough to hear the 2 and 6.

      Could you give examples of “slow” vs. “fast” songs if it makes that much difference?

      • lonbluster 7:24 am on February 27, 2009Permalink | Reply

        How much money on stake?

        :-)

    • tommrod 2:49 am on February 28, 2009Permalink | Reply

      humm…
      i dunno but all this sounds horribly similar to an old post …

      on which i happily came to the conclusion that one can translate the eddie torres style to on1 style

      for any reference please visit the post

      http://social.addicted2salsa.com/2009/01/20/learn-the-salsa-timing-stop-pretending-to-know-it/

      also anthony has a post (mentioned in the above post) that might help all posters …… for posterity? ….. post… sorry i had to do it.

      now

      i have a slight idea of lonbluster’s fast tempo problem

      i had the same problem when attempting to dance on2 (if of course both his and mine are the same kind of problem)
      and it happens on the 5 to 6 or 1 to 2 beats (which feel faster than the rest of the steps maybe because if just feels like walking????)

      i assume this problem comes because this transitions like incapie points out are not natural on on1 style.

    • lonbluster 8:03 am on February 28, 2009Permalink | Reply

      I was at the clube yesterday…I only get positive proves that dancing NY on a fast tempo is not easy.
      There were 2 girls I asked to dance who are usually quite good on NY style and there were 2 fast songs in a row. They were actually quite sorry to tell me “NO, this song is way to fast for me”.

      Come on, it is evident, a teaching method don’t have to impose such limitations… and make you think you need to practise more, and you are not good enought right now!!!

      It is no more of a problem for me…if I fing good dancers that can keep the beat.
      The problem of course is if I find dancers that cannot keep up with the beat…what to do in such cases?
      :-)
      I guess this is another topic!!

      • tommrod 10:42 am on February 28, 2009Permalink | Reply

        i would confirm that by saying that when watching videos of fast tempo songs on on2 style the footwork is much similar to on1 style than ny style.
        except for the slow paced ones where one can appreciate the right 123 567 …

      • me 11:42 am on March 2, 2009Permalink | Reply

        hi lonbluster – it really is just getting used to it. i had the same problem. the transition is tough, because the expression of the two styles are so different. but when aguanile comes on or any other fast song, on2 dancers do not clear the floor. they take shorter steps. it comes in time. just dance more on2. it will come, it has to. i am not sure if it is because youre learning 234-678 or not. step on 123-567, break on your 2 and 6, know that on the 3 and 7 your feet should be separated, and keep practicing it. i hope this problem fades away for you.

        • lonbluster 12:00 pm on March 2, 2009Permalink | Reply

          It must be kind of working like this, metaforically speaking:

          -you hear the conga preparation to the 1
          -you step more or less on 1 while you hear the 1 telling you “hey …ONE!!!”
          -you respond “on time” with “TWO!!” stepping on it (it is like…”ah..one eh?…ok, here you go…TWO!!”)
          -after a while you do this you hear the instruments that smash on2 say “That’s it, BRAVO… applause!!!”

          Ok, so.. the faster the 1 comes, the faster you have to reply with a 2 step thrusting you in the opposite direction.

          :-)
          :-D

          • me 6:27 pm on March 3, 2009Permalink | Reply

            thats prety interesting. when there is a strong 2 (as the follow) i practically stomp my left food (forward). ok- not really stomp, but i definitely feel the strength of the song when i break with the conga slap, especially in a song thats heavy in percussion. it just feels good.

    • Carl 6:30 pm on March 1, 2009Permalink | Reply

      When you dance On1 123 is the prep and 567 is the execution. Is that the same for On2?

      Nobody ever seems to have anything good to say about On1 vs. On2, so I’d like to be the first. The one thing that I observe, is that when dancing in crowded clubs, On1 appears easier to keep tight (short slot), while On2 has more of a gliding motion, and therefor needs a longer slot.

      • me 11:09 am on March 2, 2009Permalink | Reply

        hi carl – it is the opposite – on on2, the prep is 567 and the execution is on 123.

  • 9:15 am on February 16, 2009 | 3 | Permalink Reply
    Tags: arm speed, hand juggles

    Do you like hand juggles?
    They seems funny to me but I find myself very slow at moving the arms fast enough left and right, up and down…any suggestions?

    Cheers

     

  • 9:03 am on February 3, 2009 | 5 | Permalink Reply

    How can I be notified for posts I haven’t open, but only gave an answer?

     

  • 1:06 pm on January 27, 2009 | 19 | Permalink Reply
    Tags: clave, counting, ny, ,

    In the NY class I am attending to they teach to start breaking backward on the count of 2.
    And they can know that only by listening to the clave, which is the (“only”) instrument that goes over 8 counts(2 measures).
    So they say that when instead you break backward on 6 you are going in the “opposite direction”.
    Sincerely I don’t see any reason for this and I usually start either on 2 or 6, considering 6 as 2, in that case.
    Also, for what I hear, salsa songs are in equal quantity on clave 2/3 or 3/2. So I still don’t see the reason for taking the clave as a reliable reference for starting…supposing you hear the clave properly first!!!

    Any ideas about this? Is it possible that going in the “right direction” changes the way you dance?

     
    • dorm_moth

      dorm_moth 2:25 pm on January 27, 2009Permalink | Reply

      i do agree with you lonbluster.

      i don’t see any reason why one would prefer to go backward rather than forward on 2.

      and as far as calling it wrong direction… i really am skeptic, until proven otherwise it’s all the same to me.

      as far as the clave goes what happens is that you can take it either to start on 1 or on 2 depending on the way it goes in the song… or as i do the way i superpose it over the song.

      this is what i mean

      in a regular count of 8 beats

      song……1…..2…..3…..4…..5…..6…..7…..8
      clave3/2..^……..^……..^………..^…..^……
      clave2/3……..^…..^………..^……..^……..^

      as you can see you can either take the first or the second beat as the first clave sound.

      why would one song have one instead of the other?, i guess it depends on the song itself…

    • dorm_moth

      dorm_moth 2:28 pm on January 27, 2009Permalink | Reply

      in a regular count of 8 beats

      should look like this

      song……….1…..2…..3…..4…..5…..6…..7…..8
      clave3/2..^………^………^………….^…..^……
      clave2/3……….^…..^………….^………^………^

    • Anthony Persaud

      Anthony Persaud 2:36 pm on January 27, 2009Permalink | Reply

      I would have to disagree with clave being the only instrument that goes over 8 counts. There are many other instruments that play through all 8 counts (ex, piano, timbales, conga..etc). However, it is important to remind ourselves that all instruments do play relative to the clave (so the clave is important).

      Now, for determining timing, it recommended that you do not use any other instruments (other than the clave and conga) to find the beat because the other instruments are not always guaranteed to be in every salsa song. You always want to be able to find the beat in any song. The Conga is the only instrument that is guaranteed to be in every song for it to be considered ‘pure’/'true’ salsa music. Note: if it doesn’t have the conga (slap,tumbao) it is not “pure” salsa – more like modern salsa (cowbell) or Latin Jazz. That is just a technicality.

      You are right in saying that the clave is not the ‘absolute’ indicator of where the 2 and the 6 start. Actually it is the Conga slap (tumbao) that can correctly tell you which one is the 2 and which one is the 6. After using the conga to determine where your 2 and 6 is, you can then use that information to put it with the playing clave to determine whether you are in a 3/2 or 2/3 clave (based on where the ’2′ in the clave, hits in which measure). Note the Conga also helps on1 dancers know when the 1 starts (since 1 precedes the 2 with a ‘tuku-ta’ sound).

    • Anthony Persaud

      Anthony Persaud 2:38 pm on January 27, 2009Permalink | Reply

      @dorm_moth: There is no specific reason for it. However, most of the larger hits or rhythm changes happen on the 1. So it really depends whether you like to have a hit when you are doing a cross-body lead, or whether you prefer it when you do open breaks. Depending on how you start and move relative to the clave, your musicality for that song can change – which sometimes is refreshing. It is just a personal preference (as long as you keep your timing consistent).

      • lonbluster 2:58 pm on April 14, 2009Permalink | Reply

        I think there’s a spammer at the bottom…

    • dorm_moth

      dorm_moth 2:56 pm on January 27, 2009Permalink | Reply

      @Anthony Persaud:
      now that you mention it, cbl feels (to me)a more natural move to the music than breaks, not only that but i usually have trouble keeping up with the timing trough an open break it doesn’t feel as smooth when referring to the beat.

      that consider i will start practicing open breaks more.

      thanks mr persaud

    • hooknc 10:24 pm on February 2, 2009Permalink | Reply

      The only reason I’ve ever heard that new york on2 steps back is because it is more “gentleman” like. But, it could have been the instructor making that up on the spot.

    • lonbluster 4:16 am on February 3, 2009Permalink | Reply

      Hooknc, I had read that too…something like:
      “never invade lady’s space!”

      Sometime it’s just crazy what people try to teach…:-/

    • mark 8:19 am on February 3, 2009Permalink | Reply

      What do you guys do when the clave changes in a song from 2/3 to 3/2 ? Do you just keep going or stop and change up? When I dance on1 the 1 is so strong that I find I have to change with the music or else I get confused a bit with my leads.

    • lonbluster 8:48 am on February 3, 2009Permalink | Reply

      Hi Mark,

      That’s interesting, but, as we have been talking throughout this post you can understand the clave is not influencing the basic steps.

      Probably it will change the mood of the song, so that you can play differently with it…

      You say that the 1 is influencing you. But you can see that 1 can be 5 in that case, and anyway a change in the clave don’t change the 1 position…no?
      Otherwise how can you say that the clave is either 3/2 or 2/3? The 1 must be always in the same position!!!

      Cheers

    • Marco 11:11 am on February 3, 2009Permalink | Reply

      (lolz) This thread makes my head hurt…I have to go sit down somewhere.

    • tommrod 1:19 pm on February 3, 2009Permalink | Reply

      @mark:

      yeah mark is right the clave is not intended as a step reference per se, it gives you the feeling altogether with the other instruments though.
      nontheless it is always a good reference for on2 dancer’s forward or backward break, as you can see explained on a previous post, if you want to feel what i say pick a song with a very accentuated clave sound, that doesn’t switch from one form to the other, make sure you always break on the first clave (2/3) or the fourth clave (3/2) beat and forget a little about the other clave sounds because they’re more related to on1 feeling

      i’ve lately danced with ladies that would start on1 and for some little mistake (on either part) would switch to on2, as i am always experimenting with this kind of things i would let them keep going without even a comment, usually they get back on1 and the reason why is because it doesn’t feel the same, and therefore it feels wrong, so once you start on2 if you come out of it just stop and get back at it, that way, on2 starts feeling normal.

    • tommrod 1:20 pm on February 3, 2009Permalink | Reply

      fe de erratas

      i meant to say lonbluster is right rather than mark is right

    • dahvee 2:55 pm on February 3, 2009Permalink | Reply

      @lonbluster:

      Its kind of complicated but actually the clave doesn’t change. The music is based on African music traditions. One of them being the call and response. The clave pattern itself is a call and response. The piano, guitar, bass, pretty much everything is also a call and response. Also, you have to remember that in music a measure has 4 beats.

      The clave will always be…

      1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & etc.

      . . ^ . ^ . . . ^ . . ^ . . ^ . . . ^ . ^ . . .

      If you were to listen to an endless loop of the clave solely it could counted as either

      2, 3…4 & 8

      or

      1 & 4…6, 7.

      Typically it is actually the melody on top of it that gives it direction.

      When there is a time change in the song it is because the melody is not resolved. In other words there is a call but no reponse.

      It is not be because the clave changed ie

      2, 3…6, 7…1 & 4…6, 7…1 & 4

      or

      6, 7…2, 3…5 & 8…2, 3…5 & 8

    • lonbluster 4:45 pm on February 3, 2009Permalink | Reply

      @dahvee:

      So you mean that it is actually the 1 that is moved a measure forward, while the clave keeps with the same pace?

      Yes , that would make sense…do you have any song like this?

    • hooknc 5:13 pm on February 4, 2009Permalink | Reply

      I was going to ask a similar question lon.

      Here is a link on the subject of the clave and different styles of changing its rhythm:
      http://www.timba.com/fans/clave_debates.asp

      And here is another (quite long, but good) link:
      http://www.unlikelysalsero.com/2007/09/clave-more-than-most-people-want-to.html

    • salilsurendran 1:41 pm on February 10, 2009Permalink | Reply

      @Anthony Persaud:
      Hello Anthony, You are saying that most of the songs have the tumbao or conga in them. I don’t hear those. there are a few songs in which i can make out the clave. One of my instructors said that you can try and place the tuk – tudum sound of the tumbao into every song even if you don’t hear it. Is that just the way the song feels. Also in a lot of songs I feel two beats very fast like tin-tin and then tin-tin-tin but it is not actually the clave sound. Can I consider this as the clave beat?

    • lonbluster 2:56 pm on April 14, 2009Permalink | Reply

      SSSSPAAAAAMMMM

  • 4:18 pm on January 20, 2009 | 14 | Permalink Reply

    Learn the Timing…Stop pretending to know it!

     
    • Anthony Persaud

      Anthony Persaud 7:23 pm on January 20, 2009Permalink | Reply

      Is this another behavior that guys should avoid? :-)

    • lonbluster 3:49 am on January 21, 2009Permalink | Reply

      It’s just incredible…I am following and advanced class of NY style, on2, where the teacher teach to count 234-678, even if obviously, the 4 and 8 are there just for reference and do not correspond with the feet touching the ground.
      So what happen is that many people are actually dancing on the 1!!!
      It’s quite frustrating :-(

    • tommrod 9:54 am on January 21, 2009Permalink | Reply

      wow now this is interesting i have always thought that on2 count even in ny style would have to be correspondent to on1, i was relying on the idea that both have a forward and a backward break and that just the timing would be switched.
      in that way, 1/2 would be break step 2/3 weight shift 3/4 getting two feet together.
      but as lonbluster points out this doesn’t seem like so…
      then what is the correct way of interpreting the numbers 4 and 8 count on ny style? what’s the body/feet supose to be doing at that time????

    • lonbluster 2:06 pm on January 21, 2009Permalink | Reply

      Actually On2 is quite syncopated, so that the feet quite correspond to 123-567, but the body movement is totally different from the feet. This means that on 4 and 8 the upper body must be already in the position of 1 and 5, and the feet just follow the upper body.(that’s maybe one of the reason my teacher teaches to count like this, along with learning to stress on 2)

      This produce a slow down in the 4and5 and 8and1, so that you are actually standing still in this counts, and it is a relaxing little moment!!

      Anyway in a city like mine, where there is an equal mix between LA, NY, Cuban style, I notice people have generally hard time learning the proper timing…How don’t know how they can enjoy, though!!

    • lonbluster 2:17 pm on January 21, 2009Permalink | Reply

      What I have noticed is that practising a lot of Chacha is the best way to learn the proper On2 timing, and I actually listen for the ChaChaCha(TuCuTun-4&5-8&1) sound also in Salsa songs, where the last Cha is either 1 or 5.(removing of course the first 2 ChaCha steps!!)

      Anyway the most important steps to watch out are the break forward and backward on 2 and 6, which dictate a change in direction. The more precise and concentrated these 2 steps are the more momentum you have for proper dancing.

      Cheers

    • cocinandoconclave 3:44 pm on January 21, 2009Permalink | Reply

      aren’t there different styles of dancing on2? some count the mambo on2 eddie torres way. beginning (lead) with the left foot on place on 1 and the right foot backwards on 2 …
      and a second version like the angel rodriguez razz’matazz style dancin on 2,3,4 startin to step with the right foot backwards on 2?
      thats what i heard and read in different articles about the history of mambo on2. check: http://redalyc.uaemex.mx/redalyc/src/inicio/ArtPdfRed.jsp?iCve=37716209

    • lonbluster 2:10 am on January 22, 2009Permalink | Reply

      The count is there only for teaching purposes. You cannot keep counting when you dance!! Have you ever noticed this?
      Having had 2 different teacher for On2 style, one counting 123-567, the other 234-678, I can tell you there is no difference between the 2.
      Whereas there is a lot of difference in the On1 style, be it Cuban or LA.
      I have read there is also On3 style…somewhere…will it enable us to reach God??
      :-)

      • lonbluster 2:42 pm on July 12, 2009Permalink | Reply

        For reference from the following link:
        http://www.salsapower.com/cubanpete/clave/

        Much controversy exists regarding how to dance Salsa. On-1 dancers and On-2 dancers continually bicker about which way is better, each group insisting that their way is correct. However, to achieve greatness, one must dance without counting, not On-1 or On-2, but on the clave, by learning to hear, identify and use it in the dance.

        On-1 dancers dance outside the music. On-2 dancers dance on top of the music. Clave dancers dance inside the music, which gives the dance a completely different flavor.

        I was an On-2 dancer for years, having graduated from On-1 many years ago. I was hooked On-2, and knew no other way. When I met my partner, the great Cuban Pete, his comment was that I was a very good dancer but I was “off rhythm.” I was shocked. He taught me to pay attention to the clave and use it in my dancing without counting. In turn, it liberated me, and took me to a higher plateau.

    • tommrod 2:11 pm on January 22, 2009Permalink | Reply

      so far i have watched some videos about the whole deal, even embeded one from youtube here…
      it’s getting clear-er to me … now anyway.
      i even downloaded the very eddie torres video where it explains the footwork.
      now i understand a couple of things .though i might be wrong. still it looks like i might be right.

      so first, what lonbluster said about e. torres ny style sounds like it, 123 567 with 4 and 8 being counts where weight is being switched and feet are basically moving to the next possition

      but when it comes to on2 style (mambo i guess) there’s more similarities to the on1 than to ny style, in that 234 and 678 are actual steps and 5 , 1 are pauses.

      that would be as far as footwork, now, i have watched a lot of videos on2 and what i see is mostly on2 mambo, or ny style that starts as ny but ends up like on2, with pauses instead of movement i believe the later (on2) comes more natural, and that’s the reason why lonbluster gets that annoyed.

    • lonbluster 4:02 pm on January 22, 2009Permalink | Reply

      Tommrod,indeed from Dancevision Salsa videos, where they teach both on2 and on1 for each pattern, they specify that mambo dancer should consider the On1 version, adapting the counting.

      Take a look at those videos, they are very well made:
      http://isohunt.com/torrent_details/43204079/dancevision?tab=summary

      Cheers

    • dorm_moth

      dorm_moth 1:32 pm on January 27, 2009Permalink | Reply

      after several hours of complicated math (calculus, trigonometry, time-space theory applications…) i came up with a equivalency between on1, on2 mambo, on2 ny (eddie torres) footwork (just basic step though)

      as it goes trans stands for transition from 7 to 1 as 8th beat is not a resting position

      on1 1 2 3 pause 5 6 7 pause
      on2 2 3 4 pause 6 7 8 pause
      ny 6 7 trans 1 2 3 trans 5

      if one would want to translate ny to on1 one would have to step as follows

      on1 1 2 trans 4 5 6 trans 8

    • Anthony Persaud

      Anthony Persaud 2:12 pm on January 27, 2009Permalink | Reply

      @dorm_moth: I hope this would have helped too: Basic Salsa Steps Table : Map On1 to On2 timing steps

      http://addicted2salsa.com/2006/09/19/basic-salsa-steps-table-mapping-on1-to-on2-timing-steps/

    • Anthony Persaud

      Anthony Persaud 2:16 pm on January 27, 2009Permalink | Reply

      @lonbluster: Actually, when an instructor teaches you to perform a triple step in salsa on counts 2,3,4 and on 6,7,8 and using 1 and 5 are pauses – that is actually closer to Traditional Mambo. I think some places in NY, they call it ‘Palladium or Power-2‘ which was popular back in the Palladium Era..

    • dorm_moth

      dorm_moth 2:40 pm on January 27, 2009Permalink | Reply

      @Anthony Persaud:

      wow i didn’t know you have posted the very same thing a while ago… of course yours is fancier and color coded!!! cool!
      the only thing i am rather dubious about, is the 8th and 4th beat on the ny style. that’s why i called it transitional step because it’s not a pause per se as the on1 4th and 6th beat (at least as they teach it).

      and i didn’t even know about the other pr styles, though it just makes sense.

  • 6:15 pm on January 2, 2009 | 1 | Permalink Reply
    Tags: pick up, salsa women

    donv69, seeing your comments about girls, I’d like to know more about your nights, or after nights at the club…seem you have a nice point of view about salsa!!

    Cheers

     

    • donv69 7:19 pm on January 2, 2009Permalink | Reply

      LOL!!! You wouldn’t believe the trouble I get myself into. But I am not one of those guys who picks up girls to take home. To me salsa is all about having fun and laughing when you screw up; especially when you dance with a girl who you know.

      I need to be careful because often either me or the girl I dance with develops feelings over the span of a few weeks of dancing together which is not always reciprocated. It’s gotten awkward a few times.

      Anyway, my tip to meeting girls is to find out where the students go practicing. They’re there to have fun and not get picked up. You’ll make friends with them very fast, especially if you dance with the same ones often. And if you’re sincere you’ll help them improve their skills. Don’t be afraid to try out new moves with them.

      Don’t be afraid to ask for their names. I do it often. They’ll almost always ask in return. Next time you see them say hi and ask them to dance. It’s all about having fun. You’ll soon notice if one of them is interested.

  • 12:32 pm on January 1, 2009 | 4 | Permalink Reply
    Tags: music on clave, salsa artists

    What are your favorites Salsa songs and Artists?

    I started only recently to listen to Artists instead of Salsa compilations and I have to say Ismael Rivera is a great beginning, so far!! Also Poncho Sanchez seems great, even if sometimes is more jazz than Salsa.

    Thanks Antony for your audio podcast where you mention the artist all the time, so that I could research for it!
    I recall one time you where speaking about a website where you get your music, where you can also listen before buying it. Will you include the spelled name here, please?

     

    • lonbluster 12:35 pm on January 1, 2009Permalink | Reply

      Also I’d love to hear to rock salsa cover…I recall I was dancing a Salsa song based on a song from Eagles…where to find it!??

    • donv69 2:45 pm on January 1, 2009Permalink | Reply

      Sex Appeal is good.

    • donv69 2:00 pm on January 3, 2009Permalink | Reply

      I like this artists, too, Antonio Cartagena. The two songs that I have start off slow, but the chorus goes fast like crazy.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyEEcgfQV0k

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQiC-EneTkw

    • hooknc 9:11 pm on January 5, 2009Permalink | Reply

      I’m really digging on the timba sound right now.

      Calle Real – Rompiendo Murallas
      Calle Real – Princesa (Timba)
      Havana NRG! – Havana City
      Los Van Van – Disco Azúcar
      Los Van Van – Quien No Ha Dicho Una Mentira
      SONGO 21- Me da Risa
      Tumbao Habana – Johana